Thursday, September 10, 2009
LOF 7-8
After reading the first act of Macbeth as well as the first eight chapters of Golding's Lord of the Flies, what do you see as the role of evil? Where have you seen connections in the emergence of evil in these two works of literature? Can you also draw any parallels to what is going on in our world today? Think deeply here people. Respond and connect with one anothers' ideas.
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Macbeth and Lord of the Flies seem to both have some connections. In both of the books evil can disguise itself as honor and pride. Macbeth must have been thinking that not only did he want the throne, but he would be a better ruler than Duncan. All while both Ralph and Jack were thinking they would be more suitable as the general leader for the small band of boys. One other reason is Power. Power can consume people. Macbeth's wife pressured him into her plan as the ache for power turned her into a power hungry wife and consumed both her judgment and any chance of failure. She started to dream instead of think. The same goes for Ralph and Jack. Jack wants power. Everything bone in his body is saying that he’s stronger, smarter, and more equip than Ralph would ever be, so why shouldn't he be leader? The power he would gain would mean complete control over a huge group. He could make them do anything he wanted...as the realization of the great power Jack could gain it starts to eat away at his conscience. Also he puts is "Mask" on and other things start to change. His judgment fades away as the hope of raw power encases and overpowers it. Today political leaders both want power and think that they would be more suited to lead America. Although, they are much more advanced and are able to keep their heads on straight. They argue with each other instead of just going and relying on slyness and raw power to kill their opponents.
ReplyDeleteI am not going to lie, I have not been wanting ot read Lord OF The Flies. It doesn't agree with me.
ReplyDeleteThe evil in Macbeth is obvious, from the very beginging. I mean, Macbeth guts the guy, tell me that's an act full of compassion. Lady Macbeth is willing to kill her own child (she'll go through the pain to have a baby to kill it.) that's some serious stuff! Also, when she recieves the letter from Macbeth the first thing she thinks is: "Hey! Let's kill the king!" Doesn't that show she has a serious problem? They're evil!
In Lord of the Flies I think the main controversy is between Ralph and Jack. Jack is getting really power hungry and jealous. In the beginging of the book he talked about how much he had wanted to kill that pig. That was all he wanted. That's an awful thing. I wouldn't be surprised if Jack killed someone on the island. It's mainly greed, and the desire to be on top that pushes people to the edge.
Especially in the world today. It's always fear and popularity drive people to the edge. The whole world is one popularity contest and that ruins everything else.
In Macbeth and Lord of the Flies, evil exists inside of everyone and in their imaginations. Macbeth isn't truly an evil being but Lady Macbeth is trying to convince him to do things that he does not want to do, which is murder. He is giving in. There is evil on the island as the group splits and Jack and his hunters go off killing while everyone struggles for survival. It has harbored in Simon's head, taking the shape of a severed pig's head, haunting and taunting him. But we all know there really isn't a talking pig's dead. It's just Simon. A connection between the two is that some people recognize the evil going on, but not enough to stop it. Macbeth knows deep down that he has no real reason to kill his cousin, but his wife is trying to convince him that it would be good - she's even mocking him. In Lord of the Flies, Ralph and some of the boys see the evil but they cannot stop it. It's growing and growing in everyone and they are splitting apart as a group.
ReplyDeleteEvil is a tricky thing to talk about since everyone has a different vision of what evil is. Personally I think of evil as a feeling - not an action. Sure, those feelings sometimes lead to actions, but it's that uneasy feeling that we all get sometimes that seeps through our true personalities. There are different values of evil, and I think there is a fine line between having the emotion then acting on the emotion, and that ultimately decides who we are. There are certainly times when, in the real world, people recognize evil but can't do anything about it. It's unfortunate that this happens but at the same time, inevitable. But for me, it's that balance that keeps the world in check. Without evil there is no good, either.
Evil's role in the two books of Macbeth and Lord of the Flies is temptation. In Macbeth, the whitches prophect tempted Macbeth into thinking that he should kill the king because he'll be king anyways. In Lord of the Flies, Jack really wants to be chief and decides to make his own tribe where he is chief. Evil emerges out of the characters lust for power. Jack being chief and Macbeth king.
ReplyDeleteIn Lord of the Flies and Macbeth the role of evil is to distract the main characters from the truth and right way to do things. As the evil grows in Jack in Lord of the Flies(LOF) he wants to kill more and more throughtout the course of time. That want to kill ditracted the hunters from keeping the fire going when they were going to get rescued. This same theme can also appear in a different way like in chapter seven of LOF when the kids start to see things they think is beastie.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading the first act of Macbeth and the first 8 chapters of Lord of the Flies, I think that the role of evil is becoming strong in both, and especially dominant in the characters of Macbeth and Jack. I agree with Melanie; evil comes from the imagination.
ReplyDeleteIn Macbeth, Macbeth came up with the idea of Duncan dying so he could take the throne before his wife ever mentioned it. His ambition took root and started to grow. His decision to kill was very strongly influenced by Lady Macbeth. He knows, on the inside, that what he did was wrong, but does that make him any less evil? If a murdered shows remorse, does that excuse them from the crime?
In Lord of the Flies, I don't think that Jack would be evil if he wasn't on the island. The dislike for the way things are running, along with malnutrition, make him think that he could do things better, and reveals his hubris. He wants meat, Ralph won't give it to him, and he can get it himself. The killing makes him realize, in his head, that he can do anything he wants to, and in turn makes him want to lead.
In both, the emergence of evil is from the mind.
There could be examples of this in the real world, such as Hitler in WWII. He convinced himself, as well as a large number of others, that Jews were inferior. He got the idea from his hunger for power, and Germany's general state of disrepair since WWI. He needed someone to throw most of the blame on, and he used his religious prejudice to blame it on the Jewish religion, so that he could become powerful. Eventually, millions of innocent people were slaughtered mercilessly, and it all came from one thought.
Theoretically, this could happen with Jack and Macbeth. They find the need to kill people because they themselves have problems, and solve them by killing anything in their way. Instead of thinking the problem through rationally, they just do the first thing that comes to mind, which may come to be murder.
Evil is a common theme in both the Loard of the Flies and Macbeth. Jack and macbeth are very similar. Both are power hungry and will do what ever it takes to gain that power. Near the end of chapter eight the load of he flies says to simon, "fancy thinking the beast was something you can hunt and kill"..."you knew didn't you, i am part of you" The beast represents the evil that is in everyone. It points out that evil is a part of human nature and can not be escaped. In both books power brings out the worst in the characters. The value of a human life in both books is questioned. How far would you go to gain ultimate power? Evil is somthing that exists in each and every one of us and the lust for power has brought Macbeth and Jack to do dehumanizing things.
ReplyDeleteThroughout Lord of the Flies, evil has grown out of a seemingly innocent island. I believe the evil migrated to the island with the boys. Remember how Piggy warned that the only thing they had to fear on the island was people, the darkness that hides in the human heart. Also, note that one of the purposes of the novel is to reveal the flaws of human nature by starting at humanity’s beginning. What a better way to trace a reversion to savagery than with a group of boys in the first stage of a person’s life, in a similar environment as the Neanderthals, if you believe in such things. Evil was already in the boys hearts when they landed on the island, but it was hidden. Fear was the first element to bring out that evil. When people are afraid they start to doubt each other. Trust and cooperation are broken. Common sense and reasoning are ignored if not extinguished entirely. That is why all the boys hate Piggy, the only one with common sense on the island. That fear leads to a feeling of weakness, in which people will use acts of violence and terror to make themselves appear ten feet tall. In this way, one could say that power is another reason for this increasing evil, especially between Ralph and Jack. In a way, Jack reminds me of Lenin and Hitler. Both of them overthrew their country’s government and built a totalitarian government in its place. Jack hates being told what to do because he has too much ego. Also, on an island where Jack is powerless, the last thing he wants is to look small by following orders. For this reason, he picks on Piggy and kills innocent pigs for food that he does not need. These actions make him look powerful and they earn him a nervous respect. He is not liked, he is feared. You could say that Ralph represents good and Jack represents evil, for Ralph has reason but Jack has none. Jack kills and tries to start fights for that reason. Therefore, you can say that violence is another form of evil. Then there is the Lord of the Flies. True, it is just a pig’s head on a stick, but it represents all the guilt the hunters feel for their killing, raiding, and bullying. Without that guilt, they are free to become savages. Then Golding talks about the Lord of the Flies’ mouth, how it is dark and expanding. To me, the mouth represents foolishness and unreasoning. It spreads quickly, causing even the best people to forget themselves. It causes mobs and all forms of evil. Therefore, the Lord of the Flies really is the beast, the creature trying to prevent the boys from being rescued, the being that is making all the boys fall apart and the island as nasty as it is. Simon somehow knew that the beast was something that could not be hunted or killed. Also, remember how the Lord of the Flies warned that it was part of him. People who are fighting just to survive and are scared out of their minds will lapse into unreasoning. That is the source of all human error that lies in the darkest shadows of ourselves.
ReplyDeleteParallels to this theme can be found in Shakespeare’s Macbeth. Like Lord of the Flies, the evil that began to dominate Macbeth was already present in his heart. One could see this evil by the way in which he “nobly” sliced one of his enemies in half then cut off his head. That evil never would have come out any further were it not for three witches who suggested that Macbeth would become king. Macbeth immediately thought of killing Duncan. In this way, Macbeth reminds me of Jack. He has no fear of killing and he is power hungry. Both of these factors cause Jack to challenge Ralph’s system in Lord of the Flies. Like Jack, Macbeth has to hide his intentions behind a mask, but once he puts that mask which through fear brings power, he cannot take it off. The creation of Lord of the Flies reminds me of Lady Macbeth’s epilogue in which she calls demons to take away her conscience. The Lord of the Flies was a guilt offering for the evil deeds the hunter’s had done and were going to do. With that, the pig’s head became a demon, embodying the beast which I believe to be the unreasoning that promotes all evil.
One can see parallels to Golding’s book today in countries run by a totalitarian government, such as Iran, Russia Cuba. Where a totalitarian government is, there is fear, power-struggles, violence, and a lack of wisdom, for those who disrespect individuality cast aside the advantages of different viewpoints. Where there is a lack of common sense the flaws of the human heart are unrestrained and evil is free to walk about. The boys are learning this lesson on their island in Golding’s Lord of the Flies. Macbeth is just beginning to understand the darkness of his heart.
ReplyDeleteLooking through the different blogs, I am especially impressed by melaniea’s thoughts. I believe she is right that the pig’s head in Lord of the Flies corresponds to Lady Macbeth in Macbeth. They both taunt several otherwise half-way decent characters and pull them both into the unreasoning that causes evil. What a great comparison melaniea. I also agree that without darkness there can be no light, that to paint a glorious picture one must use some dark colors. The world would be so dull if there was never any struggle because without having to work hard or fight for something, maybe even a fight against evil, there is nothing to strive for, there is no triumph and no way to find friends like Piggy that will support you when the going is good and when the going is rough.
ReplyDeleteAs we start reading Macbeth, I'm starting to see some connections between the two books. For one, Macbeth thinks, by killing Duncan, that he will make things better or he will do better. I think that's kind of how jack feels too. He doesnt like ralph and he wants to be chief of the tribe. I'm wondering if something similar will occur in LOF like in Macbeth, like the plan to kill Duncan.
ReplyDeleteThe evil in these two books emerges when the kids and Macbeth start to see or think of ways to get what they want in short term. In Lord of the Flies(LOF) you start to see the boys drift away from civilness, this drift could be caused by the evil building up inside them throughout the book. Jack wanted to kill a pig more ten anything, this is just one example of how the boys started to drift to uncivilness. Just like in todays world some people saw the need for an economic bailout, but this did not help us in the long run, because the companies we gave the money went into bankrupt and hard times again and we had to bail them out again.
ReplyDeleteIn LOF, evil is shown by the one thing that Jack and Ralph want, power. They both want to be the top dog and in control of everybody. This ends up tearing everybody apart. Also another evil in both novels is fear. Fear tears the boys apart in Lord of the Flies. THey are all afraid of the Beast and this sets up contraversy between all of them. They start to fight and then there is nothing between control and chaos. In Macbeth however, it is also shown as fear. In some ways, Macbeth fears his wife. She is crazy and he does not want that against him. Also, his power is evil. They are going to kill the king just because of the power that he has. So these are the connections between the two books.
ReplyDeleteIn Lord Of The Flies, I think that jack is evil. In Macbeth, it seems that Lady Macbeth and Macbeth are evil. Jack is evil because he is trying to split up the camp and he thinks that he is a better chief than ralph when ralph has done pretty well as the leader of a bunch of kids. In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth and Macbeth are evil because they are plotting to kill the king. I think Jack, Lady Macbeth, and Macbeth are similar because of their power hungry characteristics.
ReplyDeleteThese three characters are like politicans and leaders in our world today. Once they get a little piece of power, they want as much as they can get and will do anything to get it. Even put people's lives in jeopardy.
So far in the text of the novel Lord of the Flies and the tragedy, Macbeth, there's been a basic simelarity between the two. In LOF, Ralph is the overall leader, but Jack, a not as powerful leader wants to have the throne, this is exactly what is happening in Macbeth between Duncan and Macbeth. Macbeth is plotting to stap Duncan to rid of him, and crown himself king. One cannot help but wonder via what means, if any, Jack will use in LOF, to get his way in being leader.
ReplyDeleteI agree a lot with elijahk2013. I dont know if Jack will use any physical means to get the throne but you never know what a bunch of school boys stranded on an island will do. Rather i think he will try to have a re-election and try to get elected. Lady Macbeth and Macbeth on the other hand have to kill Duncan to get the throne. The characters of Jack Macbeth and Lady Macbeth all share characteristics. They are all power hungry and will do everything in their power to get the power.
ReplyDeleteI agree with many people that have posted before me in that I think both books show how evil can easily come from within anyone when there is an absolute goal in mind. For Macbeth and Lady Macbeth evil comes when Macbeth's future depends on Duncan's death. If Macbeth hadn't been given ideas of glory and royalty, he would probably continued simply fighting wars as normal. For Ralph and the other boys the goal was survival and rescue. Jack focuses on survival more than rescue and ralph is the opposite. The difference in their goals seem to cause conflict. I also see a connection from Ralph and Jack in the politics surrounding the health care reforms. Ralph has a broader outlook on survival much like the democratic party sees a larger spectrum of people needing healthcare. The republican party reminds me more of Jack. They have a central idea and have a hard time focusing on anything outside of that piont.
ReplyDeleteLord of the Flies and Macbeth connect alot with eachother when it comes to the level of evil. In LOF Ralph is the basic leader but you can tell that Jack doesn't like that because it's his basic nature to be the leader. You can tell that Jack will do anything to have Ralph step down from leadership so that he can take his place. In Macbeth you can tell that since the witches tricked Macbeth into thinking he is going to be king that evilness has taken over him and that he will do anything to be king even if it's killing someone who trusts him. In our world today we as humans make decisions that when looked at carefully you can see that evil is the source of our choices. Like sometimes with our wars that America has had we have reacted because of the evil we want our enemies to face with us.
ReplyDeleteI think that in Lord of the Flies, Jack is the role of evil. He is the role of evil because he is trying to get to the "throne". I know that Jack is trying to take ralph's place because in chapter 8 he held an meeting against Ralph. In Macebeth, I think that Lady Macbeth is the role of evil. I think that because she won't stop at anything until she gets to be queen. She is forcing Macbeth to kill Duncan only because of her greediness. I have seen connections between these two evils because neither Jack nor Lady Macbeth will ever stop attempting to overthrow somebody. In our world evil is in polotics. However, there is evil on both sides. Neither republicans nor democrats fully give up on something that they really want. This is similar to Lady Macbeth and Jack.
ReplyDeleteI think that the main work of evil going on in Macbeth, Lord of the Flies, and in the real world, is appearance vs. reality. We all know and have talked about how even though Duncan is Mabeth’s cousin Macbeth is still wanting to kill him. Not only is he evil, but Lady Macbeth and the witches are bad too. In lord of the flies, even though Jack and Ralph get along, it is pretty apparent that they don’t like each other at all. Jack seems to be the most uncooperative, however, Ralph went behind Piggy’s back by calling him that name. I think that this same situation occurs all the time in our world. Some people at school sit in the front of the classroom, and never talk and are the “perfect” student. These same people are crazy out of school, doing a bunch of activities or parties. Personally, I do not think that the evil in these books is talking about a specific character because they all have many wrong doings.
ReplyDeleteIn both Lord of the Flies and Macbeth the evil is the desire for power. In Macbeth, Macbeth wants to become king and that is where the evil emerges. In the Lord of the Flies both Jack and Ralph want to be the leaders of the group. It is similar because they are all willing to do whatever it takes to be in the position of power. Macbeth is willing to kill, and Jack and Ralph are willing to let others struggle. I think this evil that shows up in these books can be connected to the election time. When running for an office people will do anything, like incorrect ads and a variety of other things, just to get that office. They will ruin peoples futures just to get one office.
ReplyDeleteMacbeth and Lord of the Flies have a huge connections with evil. In both of them the source of evil is temptation. Macbeth temptation is power and his push is Lady Macbeth. In LOF the temptation is jack for power and his push is for violence and control of everyone in the group. Unlike Macbeth, Jack doesn't know when enough is enough or what is right from wrong, he just goes out and does it. For example, when they were reenacting the hunt, they almost killed Robert.
ReplyDeleteIn both Lord of the Flies and Macbeth act 1, evil is disguised as horror and pride. The main source of evil is the desire for pride. Macbeth wants to be king so bad that he is willing to murder King Duncan. This is where the evil shows up originally. In Lord of the Flies, Ralph is the leader but Jack wants to take control so badly that he even held a meeting against Ralph, broke out of the group and took many of the older kids with him. In Lord of the Flies, the main goal is to survive and be rescued. Ralph mainly wanted to get rescued and that is really important but jack wanted to show is manliness by surviving and hunting. This made Jack basically go crazy over hunting and betray Ralph. This is where the evil came out in Lord of the Flies. Today political leaders want the power to be in complete charge. Although they may be the better choice, they usually become the leader corruptly. They say why the opponent is the wrong choice as appose to why they are the right choice.
ReplyDeleteIn both Macbeth and Lord of the Flies evil is a present factor in everyday life. In these two books, evil is hidden by “masks”. Jack, when hunting is hidden by a mask that allows him to do whatever and gives him a sense of pride and strength. I think that this evolves into evilness when he carries that mask to other places besides the place (his “hunting grounds”).Then he becomes a murderous maniac looking for something to destroy. This kind of relates to Macbeth because both he and Lady Macbeth are hiding behind masks of good and loyalty but really they are planning to kill King Duncan. Macbeth is obviously a fighter but is also loyal to his king. This is until Lady Macbeth basically calls him a wimp so he changes his mind (he’s cracking under pressure, he wouldn’t be a good king!). I think the big thing behind this is power, for both Macbeth and Jack in Lord of the Flies. Macbeth and Lady Macbeth both are power hungry and want the throne for themselves. Both of them are more than willing to kill for this position. This is definitely a sign of evil. Jack on the other hand also wants power but I’m not so sure he’s as willing to kill actual people for a title like “chief”.
ReplyDeleteI see the greed taking the role as evil in Lord of the Flies and Macbeth. In Lord of the Flies evil starts to become very visible when they first see the ship that comes close to the island and the people in charge of the fire are not keeping it going and it causes a lot of chaos and everyone begins to start to really dislike one another. Then in Macbeth I think that the evil that is being shown is greed because the only reason that Lady Macbeth is going to attempt to kill Duncan is because she wants to make her husband more powerful. For me I can’t really think of any comparisons to nowadays except for just how people act in places like school and stuff. A lot of people go around and use a “mask” to act like their friends and try to fit in with one another when they sometimes don’t really care to be with their friends, also the evil of greed is sometimes shown when people are really rude towards each other just to fit in. This tends to make others feel really bad and shows the evil in humans.
ReplyDeleteBut I would also agree with what Ruthie said, how the evil is the masks, without those masks I would agree that there would be a lot less evil throughout these stories.
I believe that the Masks people put on in Macbeth and LOF represent evil. In LOF, Jack puts on the Mask before he goes hunting or to double crosses Ralph by smearing on war paint. In his mind if he is wearing the Mask then it isn’t him any more it is someone else more free, more wild. In Macbeth, Macbeth shields his true intentions to kill King Duncan with a Mask of hospitality and kindness. Jack and Macbeth both use Masks just in a different way.
ReplyDeleteI think that this Mask wearing is going on all the time everyday in every ones life. Ever time you think about what other people think of you and change your actions accordingly you are putting on the Mask. Maybe not to hide or excuse our selfs from evil blood thirsty intentions, but we our still masking our true selfs and I don’t think that is right. Do you guys agree or disagree with my point? If so then why?
The role of evil that takes place in both Macbeth and Lord of the Flies is the concept of hiding behind a mask. In Lord of the Flies, Jack only becomes a true hunter by hiding behind his war paint of a mask. In Macbeth, Macbeth is ordered to act like a snake by Lady Macbeth in order to kill King Duncan. By acting like a snake, this involves going behind people's backs, almost like having a mask to cover up his identity. The need or want for power is also a factor to consider as a connection between these two works of literature. In LOF, Jack and Ralph compete for the title of leader, and the evil streaks in both of them emerge. In Macbeth, the same situation is present between Macbeth and King Duncan. King Duncan already has more power than Macbeth, so Macbeth's dark side is revealed when he realizes that he could kill King Duncan to gain more power. When i connect these situations to events in our world today, i reflect back to the 2008 presidential elections. Senator McCain and President Obama battled it out in the form of speeches in hopes that one of them would win the title of President of the United States. Obama eventually won. The ads run on television during the campaigns were, at times, demeaning and harsh on both parties which signified the evil presence that still exists in our society today.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Shannon said about appearance vs. reality. Her analogy of a perfect student compares to the tension that was present between President Obama and Senator McCain because even though they looked to be sincere at speeches, the work going on behind the scenes to defeat the other person was the reality of it.
I saw the mask connection again. That was cool. The pig's head was most definitely the role of evil. I thought that Ralph would be the one to adopt the Lord of the Flies nickname. I can't really think of any connections to the real world, but I'm sure it will come to me tonight right before I fall asleep. It always does. Was Simon the kid that disappeared? With the mark on his face? I looked back but couldn't find who that was. And is Simon going insane? What's wrong with him?
ReplyDeleteI have been more excited to read Macbeth then Lord of the Flies. I’m not sure why but Lord of the Flies is just boring to me. There was evil in Macbeth from the very beginning. Talking about war, when Macbeth killed the traitor they were proud of how he killed the traitor. When lady Macbeth got Macbeth’s letter she immediately thought; he should kill the king so he may be king. In both books evil hides in innocent places. You would expect lady Macbeth to be sweet and charming but she is the most evil out of everyone so far. She was the one that came up with the plan to kill Duncan she convinced her husband to go through with her plan.
ReplyDeleteLord of the Flies is very weird. In the beginning all the boys seemed innocent and sweet. Once they have been on the island for a while things get out of control. In chapter seven when some of the older boys including Ralph and Jack go up to the mountain to see if there is a beast they get sidetracked by a pig. They all run after it and once it goes away they decide that roger should be the pig in a game. They all start stabbing him with their spears. Who does that? When you are reading this you have to be thinking that they are crazy in some way. And afterwards Jack suggests that a littlun should be the pig next time then they all start laughing. When I read these things it makes me think that the boys aren’t so sweet after all and that there is evil in everyone it just takes the right thing to bring it out. In both books evil hides in innocent places.
In the story of Macbeth, there are some people that are evil, some who have evil brought out of them, and some who are not evil. Duncan, for example, is a pure soul (or seems to be) and I now understand why he was dressed in white in The Royal Shakespeare Company.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, Macbeth, as we have talked about in class, is much like Jack with a mask of evil that gives him no mercy to kill. Also, Macbeth's wife is evil, and persuades Macbeth to follow her wishes.
In LOF, Evil is like catching a cold and now has established into a tribe of ruthless boys. In Macbeth as well as in LOF, evil is seen as something in everyone, and anyone can unleash it to the point of becoming evil. Ralph himself becomes a hunter and barely feels bad for the near death of another boy's life when it "was only a game."
I agree with Kylie about greed being the root of evil. In LOF, Jack and Ralph constantly compete for the role of leader. The greed that Jack has for Ralph drives him to not do the right thing. In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth is greedy and only wants her husband to have the throne. She will go to exteme lengths to have that happen. I tink it is human nature to have greed as with the saying "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence." No matter how much we have, humans always want more. For example, if somone has a perfectly fine car, but sees someone close to them get a brand new car greed takes over. The person with the older car may end up buying a new car just to compete in popularity. This evil between fellow human beings can also be attributed to masks. We try to cover up our evil and blame it on someone else. This just leads to more bad deeds. I agree with Taylor about how one of the most innocent forms of evil is the polictial ads on TV. Those ads, though they seem harmless, often instead of publicizing the good things about oneself highlight the faults in one another. The candidates mask their own faults and create the other to be a horrible person. Another paraell to the world might be celeberties. Take Oprah for example. Sure she had a hard life, and sure she is doing good things, but she doesn't have to publicize it. Her deeds on the surface are good, but often times celebrities will donate money to charity or help someone else out so that they can say "Look what I did." They mask their true intentions, putting themselves socially higher, with the deed itself.
ReplyDeleteBy reading both LOF and the beginning of Macbeth, we begin to see connections between the two. EVil is clearly present in Macbeth and evil is slowly appearing in LOF. Macbeth and Jack i think are the most parallel characters in the stories. Both do evil from a outside force pushin them. In Macbeth's case this is his wife, Lady Macbeth, in Jack's case it is the stress and fear of being stranded on the island. Though the evils were pushed apon them, they are still to be bamed because i think evil is always your choice.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I think that both are not necessarily acts of evil, but those of pure human failing.
ReplyDeleteI see the representation of evil as being human ambition and fear. Macbeth hungers for power. The boys are afraid, although the biguns might not acknowledge it.
In Lord of the Flies, the boys are immature and don't exactly know how to care for themselves and the others around them. In Macbeth, both Macbeth and Lady Macbeth want to be more powerful and influential.
In many ways, today's "evils" are influenced by fear and ambition. We fear each other and each other's beliefs, and always want to get ahead of everyone else; so much that it can be our downfalls.
And like Tatiana, I've been more anxious to read Macbeth than Lord of the Flies.
After reading the first 8 chapters in Lord of the Flies and Act 1 of Macbeth I see the role of evil coming up as a want for power. Both Macbeth and Jack do the evils they do so they can have more power. They both start pretty high in society Macbeth is the Thane of Glamis and Jack is the leader of the hunters, but they feel they should be in complete control. Jack wants to be tribe leader and Macbeth wants to be King. These thoughts of power over others is what drives both Jack and Macbeth to do evil deeds like killing.
ReplyDeleteIn our world today you can also see the thoughts of power leading to evil things. They usually come up in dictatorships and coups. Sometimes these sizes for powers can be for the good of the country but often it is a person or group who wants absolute power. These people are selfish and normally they don't care who they hurt as long as they're in charge.
I mostly see the evil roles in jack and Macbeth. They both just want whats good for themselves really. And jack is also like the witches. They all are always stirring up trouble where there use to be peace. Some connected things are the mast. Jack cant be kill the pig unless he ahs the paint on his face, Macbeth has to use his mask and lull Duncan into a false security before killing him later while he sleeps. Both Jack and Macbeth want to be rulers and get rid of the current leading man. I have to agree with sydneyi2013 too. I’m not fond of “Lord of the flies” either. It just doesn’t sit right with me. Jack I think quiet frankly is crazy. Then Macbeth and his wife are off their rockers too. So neither of them is sane which doesn’t help the situations. When it comes to real life today, I connect the masks to everything. Does anyone ever really put his or her full and true self out there? No every one has a mask they put on whether it is just make up the women put on or its just lies that people spread without a second thought. Everyone nowadays has a mask hat they wear.
ReplyDeleteReading these two books has let me see where the evil is in them. In Macbeth power is a very big evil factor. When the witches first tell him the prophesy he sees the image of himself killing the king and taking the power. His wife is also corrupted by the lust for power and persuades her husband to be corrupted also. Power drives them to do evil. In Lord of the Flies the evil is also power. Jack lusts for the power of leadership with a passion. He would do anything to get it and it is consuming all that he is. In the world of today the elections for the presidency were about the power of leadership just like in these two books but our candidates are more level headed and just argue about it.
ReplyDeletepower, it's almost like a drug in both books. This influence of power has caused characters in both books to go somewhat mad. Like in Macbeth, Macbeth is killing Duncan and he would never do something like that but there is power to be found in Duncan's death and Macbeth wants it. There is also power in LOF, but they have absolutely gone crazy. They are playing these weird games of murder and they think it is funny. I am awe struck by the actions of the kids, it is just mind blowing to me. The influence of power is also very prevalent in todays society, maybe not to the same degree, but it is defiantly there. In goverment people will throw anyone under the bus just so they can be on top. Evil is power and power is good, when it is controlled
ReplyDeleteAfter reading the first act of Macbeth and the first eight chapters of Lord of the Flies, I have concluded that the role of evil is pure greed. Evil is present in Jack because he longs to be the leader. Likewise, evil resides in Macbeth because he is desperate to be the king. Greed can lead people to do terrible things, and my prediction is that greed will lead Jack to hurt or kill someone. Evil finds its way into people not only through greed, but also through fear and weakness. Macbeth had decided to abstain from killing Duncan, but then Lady Macbeth attacked him by accusing him of not acting like a man. Obviously this was his weakness because now he is going to go through with it. Jack turned evil originally from his greed and longing to kill a pig. Now he has completely turned away from the group because Ralph called his hunters weak. I disagree with nathan2013. He said that he did not think Jack would use “physical means to get to the throne…” I take the opposite view. I believe Jack will do anything he has to do to get to the “throne,” just like Macbeth.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Chris F. about the parallel between these two works of literature and politics today. Some politicians will do almost anything to get into office, even if it is deceiving or hurts someone.
I also agree with Ruthie G. about the fact that Macbeth would not make a good king because he gave into the pressure of his wife. I doubt this will be the last time he cracks under pressure.
Can you also draw any parallels to what is going on in our world today?
ReplyDeleteTemptation in both Macbeth and LOF is a huge road block for the characters. In Macbeth, he and his wife strive for power and are tempted to kill Duncan. In LOF, there is temptation to put others down and even hurt the opponent. Ralph and Jack are constantly tempted to fight against one another for leadership. I agree with silvanao2013 about how Jack and Macbeth both wanted the best for themselves. Jack and Macbeth closley relate to each other in their ambition and ideas. In some parts, it seems as if Jack secretly (or maybe not so secretly) wants to kill Ralph in order for power. Macbeth is also in the same position. Today, a lot of people are full of ambition. Many people hide their true selves, but in reality they are a whole different person.
Between the two writing materials, the biggest connection I see is mostly concerning the ambition for power. Within Lord of the Flies, Jack is thirsty for power. He wants Ralph's position as chief of the boys. He wants things done his way. He believes he is stronger, smarter and more cabable then Ralph. If things are done his way, everything would be perfect. Even so Ralph believes he should be chief, he isn't exactly power hungry as Jack. There might be a chance because he is already in the positon of ordering and getting things done his way. Even so, he is loosing his power over the group of boys, and by the looks of it, he is loosing his reason for being in charge. In Macbeth, the ambition for power is shared by both Macbeth and his wife, Lady Macbeth. Macbeth does want the throne. In some parts of Act One, it does show he believes he is better than king. He is willing to kill the king, but he at first was hesitant. By the looks of it Macbeth would not have gone with the regicide, however the push of his wife brings him to do the action of murder. Lady Macbeth wants power, and for her to get power, her husband must be in power. She is far more ambitious for the throne than Macbeth.
ReplyDeleteOverall the 'evil' in the two pieces revolves around ambition for power. Jack wants power and will do things his own way to get the power. Macbeth does want the throne, but it is his wife, Lady Macbeth who is actually ambitous for the throne.
I just made an observation about Lord of the Flies. Does anyone else find it peculiar that there is a boy named Piggy on the island and the only meat on the island is pig? Or the fact that the Lord of the Flies is a pig? I just thought that was an odd connection. I am sure Golding did this for a reason, but I am curious as to what that reason is.
ReplyDeleteIn both Macbeth and Lord of the Flies, evil has played a large part in both of these books. In Macbeth, Macbeth decides that he wants the throne and he is willing to kill Duncan to get it. Even though Macbeth is the one that wants the throne, Lady Macbeth is more evil and power hungry. She is willing to kill her own baby and do whatever it takes to murder Duncan and take the throne.
ReplyDeleteIn Lord of the Flies, evil is building up in Jack. Since Ralph was elected to be the chief of all the boys on the island, Jack has been jealous. He thinks that he would be a better chief which has been a factor in causing a lot of tensity on the island.
This all relates to our world today through wars and hatred. Many people want to be better than others and more powerful, so they will do whatever that is to gain that power. In many countries, leaders are murdering people all the time if they get in their way of being on top or if they dont follow all the laws. When people want to be more powerful than other people, it causes a lot of hatred and things will only get worse.
The book Lord of The Flies is a very strange...let's say unique book. It is kind of hard to tell the true evil in the book because of the change in emotions from all the characters. I think that the foundation of the evil in this book is the illusion of the "beast." The illusion its self i not the evil but it is what's causing people to get violent and act the way they do. The evil in Macbeth, to me, has been obvious from the first act. It is the longing form Macbeth for power but it is also the witches for leading him on the dark path that feeds his idea of retrieving it. Before I end my post I want to comment on baileyw2013 connection with the constant reference to pigs on the island. I also think that there is a connection and so far it has been hard to figure it out but i think it might have something to do with driving people crazy. Think about it, the character Piggy drives Jack completely bonkers and most everyone else for that matter, the fact of needing pig for meat has driven everyone on the island insane, even if Ralph won't admit it, and also the weird affect the Lord of the Flies had on Simon. I think that was Simon's breaking point and that he finally collapsed in on himself mentally wise.
ReplyDeleteIn the novel Lord of the Flies, the author, William Golding creates an indistinct evil in the forms of temptation, fear, and the desire to be superior. Similarly, the tragic play Macbeth, by William Shakespeare, incorporates evil in comparable ways.
ReplyDeleteJack, a character from Lord of the Flies, is tempted to be better than others. He craves the position of chief of the island. As this temptation grows, he can no longer hide how he feels, and must put on a mask to carry out the deeds that he feels must be done. In doing so, Jack doesn’t feel as if he has committed the act, but rather the mask. In Macbeth, the character Macbeth is tempted by the foretelling that he will become king of Scotland. He feels that in order to fulfill this prophecy he must kill the current king, Duncan. In order to do so, he must put a mask over his true feelings in order to carry out the deed. In both instances, the character acts one way, but uses “the mask” as a scapegoat to achieve superiority.
In the Lord of the Flies, another scapegoat is the beastie. Many characters are afraid of this creature, and use it to justify their actions. Often, characters will avoid responsibilities because of their fear in this creature. In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth taunts and mocks her husband to persuade him to kill King Duncan. This creates a fear in Macbeth because his own wife contests his manhood, and bravery. This fear of not following through, or peer pressure, causes Macbeth to make bad decisions.
These prevalent evils in both the play and the novel can be considered factors that help classify Macbeth as a tragedy, and The Lord of the Flies as a depressing novel. In short, all of these evils can amount to an exceptional tragedy.
In the world today, these evils are prevalent in many Dictators today. They are tempted by power which they begin to crave. For some, they must put on a “mask” to carry out the tasks necessary to achieve what they want. Lastly, Dictators usually rule by fear, in order to keep the public in their control.
Evil is alot more evident in Macbeth, while in LOF, evil lies underneath conflict and characters. In LOF, the evil lies within Jack and the bigguns. All they are concerned with is killing and doing whatever they need to to survive. These beliefs are starting to rub off on Jack, who originally just wanted to do whatever he had to do so he could get off the island. This shows that evil is beginning to lie within all the characters of LOF becasue they are becoming dilousional and are losing hope.
ReplyDeleteIn Macbeth, evil is very evident in Lady Macbeth, who is doing all that she can to convince Macbeth to kill Duncan.
In both of these selections, evil exists a desire for death so others can be successful. In LOF, Jack will do anything to be a leader even if it means death of someone else. Same goes for Macbeth.
In our world today, many people will be mean to others so they can be on top and people still respect them for it.
Bailey just made a great point! Piggy must be also thought of something to hunt... just like the pigs.
Lord of the flies and Macbeth are similar in that they share the same evil: human nature. In Lord of the flies this is presented more outright, but also in a more interesting manner in the form of the pig's head or "the lord of the flies". Simon is the only one who sees it because he is the only one who understands that the beast is within the boys, their dark side. The Lord of the Flies even explains this by saying "fancy thinking the beast was something you could hunt and kill! You knew, didn't you? I'm part of you?". This makes it clear that the beast that emerges is the human love of competition and power. Jack separates himself from Ralph because he needs to be superior. There is a different motive in Macbeth, but it is also somewhat the same. Macbeth is greed, he even states that his downfall will be ambition. Lady Macbeth is the driving evil behind him and Macbeth continues his mission to kill Duncan not on an evil whim but because he seeks power and to please Lady Macbeth. This shows the flaw of human nature because our wish to please and to make something of ourselves overpowers or wish to do the right thing.
ReplyDeleteThe role of evil in Macbeth and LOF is to create conflict. Both stories have evil portrayed as a mask. Jack putting on his hunter mask and Macbeth his to kill the king. In LOF Jack is trying to gain power distancing himself from the rest of the group. Macbeth is also looking for power as he is willing to kill the king.
ReplyDeleteIn our world today people still seek power whether it be financial power or just plain power, but it can be good or bad. People who revolt because of oppression is good power as it gives people new opportunities and it improves their lives, but people who just want power for power like dictators are bad it takes away opportunities for people.
There are some similarities in how evil shows itself in Lord of the Flies and in Macbeth. One similarity is that in both, the evil occurs when people lose their natural inhibitions, in one way or another. In Lord of the Flies, Jack is no longer in civilization, so he can do what he wants. As a result, the evil that is inherent in people overpowers the good in Jack, and he starts to act evil. In Macbeth, Macbeth starts to lose his fear about being evil because of the witches’ prophesy. He figures that because it is his fate to become king, all he would be doing by killing the king is bringing the inevitable around more quickly. A similarity in how evil manifests itself in the two books is masks. In Lord of the Flies, Jack paints his face, then he is free to do whatever he wants. Once his face is painted, he becomes a different person, and he feels no guilt about killing. In Macbeth, It talks about the mask Macbeth must put on. He has to act like a host, while hiding his evil intentions. As long as he looks the part, there is no chance he will be responsible for his evil (at least in his mind). I made the same connection as baileyw2013, which is that Piggy is called Piggy, and Jack hunts pigs. I wonder if that is foreshadowing something bad happening to Piggy at the hands of Jack.
ReplyDeleteIn Macbeth the evil is a lot more obvious than the evil in Lord of the Flies. Macbeth has blood, guts, killing, and Lady Macbeth that is basically to a point where she will kill anything that gets in her way. She was going to kill her own child and is way to excited about killing the king!
ReplyDeleteLord of the Flies is a lot more subtle about the evilness. I think that overtime the evil has built up with the tension. The boys are losing patience with eachother and all they care about at this point is power. I also think they are getting to carried away with the hunting of the pigs. It is all they ever think about and it is just disgusting.
In the real world people are always trying to be the best at everything and can sometimes be way to competitive. This can bring out the worst in people and maybe even some evilness.
I agree with those who say that there are many similarities in LOF and Macbeth. It seems like the main point of both stories so far is how humans have 2 sides, a normal one, and a more savage side. In LOF we really discover Ralph's savage side on the hunt. Ralph is normally a calm and relaxed person, but on the hunt he became very savage and animal like. He was a totally different person. Also, I'm not quite sure what will happen between the two "tribes" on the island now. It really reminds me of the TV show "Survivor". I'm really confused on what the beast is. At first, I thought it might be their minds playing tricks on them, but now that they actually saw something, I'm not so sure. I'm really excited to see what happens next.
ReplyDeleteIn both stories the role of evil is played by greed and want for power. The want for power causes people like Macbeth and Jack to lose their common sense and turn to a totally different state of mind. More so for Jack when he has on the hunter's mask. The mask for Jack almost seems like Lady Macbeth for Macbeth because both change the person hiding behind them. Lady Macbeth has a large role in the evil surrounding Macbeth. She has a very strong want for power. Like many others have said, she is willing to kill her own child. Clearly she isn't all there but maybe that stems from the want and need for power. In today's world I certainly think there people who are surrounded by evil thanks to their want for power and greed. I do agree with Taylor though in saying that LOTF is much more subtle about emerging evil.
ReplyDeleteEvil has the role of instigator in many places. In Lord of the Flies evil could be the prejudice many have against Piggy for his physical unattractiveness or evil could be the greed for power, like between Jack and Ralph.
ReplyDeleteEvil is an instigator in Macbeth, too. The three witches start most of Macbeth by prophesying to Macbeth about his fate.
“And oftentimes, to win us to our harm,
The instruments of darkness tell us truths,
Win us with honest trifles, to betray's
In deepest consequence” (Macbeth Act 1. Scene 3. Line 135.)
Evil is also the greed for power, or “…vaulting ambition…”, like Macbeth and Lady Macbeth have for King Duncan’s throne. The evil in Lord of the Flies is much more subtle than in Macbeth.
Masks also are another parallel between these books. In Lord of the Flies Jack puts on a mask to change from a helpless, frightened Jack to a fearless, fighting Jack. Macbeth has to put on a mask so that Duncan will not suspect him. Lady Macbeth needs to put on an innocent hostess’ mask.
Many people wear “masks” to cover what is really going on in their lives.
Throughout the book the role of evil seems to be ambition. It is what pushes Jack to become more and more of a savage. And what pushes some of the other boys to follow Jack instead of Ralph. One connection between the two pieces of literature is the ambition. Lady Macbeth has strong ambitions like Jack that cause her to do horrible things, like convince her husband to kill the king. Another connection is the 'mask' that characters in each work put on. In LOF Jack puts on his mask of warrior paint and it makes him feel powerful and like he can do anything even if it is against his moral. Jack also puts on this mask when he storms Ralph's camp because he knows that he would not have the courage to tell the others these things without it since he was embarrassed in front of them the last time they had a meeting. In Macbeth the mask is put on by Macbeth and his wife when they have to pretend to be loyal servants and hosts, when they are planning to kill their guests.
ReplyDeleteSome parallels in the world today is that ambition is still the role of evil. Some countries have resorted to nuclear power because they want other countries to view them as a threat. This is sort of like Jack wanting to kill to show the other boys that he is a threat. Another parallel is that mask. Many people put on masks in their everyday lives because no one can honestly tell the whole truth and fell okay about themselves because they have too much evil in them. People have too much ambition, although some of it can be good ambition it can make you do bad things to achieve your ambition.
Macbeth and LOF are turning out to be more and more like each other as we read on. Okay, I'm not a true fan for either of these books, I don't really look forward to reading them. Macbeth is really confusing and hard to follow, and LOF seems to have no real point. But, with in each, there are important messages trying to be recieved by the audience.
ReplyDeleteFrom the start, I knew that Macbeth was a bad dude. I mean, seriously, I don't care if you're the most loyal person on the Earth, if you "de-gutify" someone then chop off there head... Well that just doesn't seem too nice if you ask me.
As for LOF, I could always sense tension between the boys, but this tension has obviously grown as time has progressed. For example... When they beat up that boy in Chapter 7 because they were trying to relate to hunting a pig or whatever. Try to convince me that's not barbaric!! Also, I definitely think that if Jack doesn't get over this hunting desire thing, he's gonna have no problem killing someone else on the island. I don't have any doubts that person could be Piggy...
These books are both showing many evil acts, but, they are all "masked." Pride, fear and "loyalty" are all "reasons" for the people to cause these horrible things.
Evil in these two works is emerging as a self imposed force. In the Lord of the Flies it is brought on by their own fear of the beasts that they think lurk in the forst. In Macbeth it is being brought on by what Macbeth thinks is his destiny but he does not know. Evil is playing the role of keeping the people in line so to speak. It is the one force that makes them think twice about everything they do and it makes them want to do certain things even more. One parallel in the world today is drug use. We think we need to take drugs but we never really do.
ReplyDeleteIn both situations, evil is under a disguise. In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth instructs Macbeth on every action he should take to conceal his evil intents. In Lord of the Flies, Jack's hunger for power turns into a sense of evil. His mask he puts on as a hunter symbolizes him hiding his evil. The main connection between the two, is that there is an outside element influencing the evil. Lady Macbeth is obviously the factor that tells him when, how, why, to kill the king. In Lord of the Flies, it is a little bit harder to find the element. In my opinion the element for Jack that influences his evil, is missing adults. Without the leadership, Jack is forced to develop his own self-government which eventually turns into a form of evil; the desire to kill.
ReplyDeleteLike many of the people tha posted before me, I agree that the characters in each literary work have to put on a disguise before they can do evil. I think that this is in some way apparrent in the lives of modern people today. One of the biggest ways; video games. I would never go out and just start participating in a war today, committing the bloody deeds that are needed for self preservation, nobody wants to go do that. But is that really the truth? i don't think so, because what about when the new Call of Duty game comes out? People wait all night at a store to buy the game. They do this just so that they can be the first ones to make it through the game, being able to say that they shot all of the terrorists and completed the objectives before anyone else. In the end though, how many of these same people actually end up in the military. The game serves as their mask to do evil, maybe not in the real world, but in a video game made to replicate one of Human kinds most destructive habits.
ReplyDeleteLike many other people, I can definitely see the evil in Macbeth and Lady Macbeth. Macbeth is a vicious character from the very beginning, what with gutting the man during the battle. Later on, both of them want to kill the king out of greed. I think that Macbeth and Lady Macbeth are both very power-hungry, so they'll do anything that it takes to get to the top.
ReplyDeleteIn Lord of the Flies, I personally don't see any pure, all-out evil. After all, the Ralph and Jack are only 12 years old. I think that they're too young to show signs of truly being evil; however, Jack share the trait of being power-hungry with Macbeth. He wants to be the leader, and he tries to get close to Ralph so he can almost become the leader through him.
Like Janie said, all of the acts of evil are through masks- Jack only feel sbrave enough to hunt with war paint on, and Macbeth kills the king, but frames somebody else. He feels that, if he puts the blame on someone else and enough people believe it, he won't really have done it himself. I also think that Macbeth wouldn't have killed the king out of something like hate. He only did it because he thought that it would be the best thing to do.
Compared to our world today, I think that there is more evil in Macbeth, because people don't really just going around killing their bosses so that they can get the job. However, there still is murder and theivery; therefore, we have more evil in our world today than there is in Lord of the Flies.
In these two books evil takes many different shapes. In Macbeth evil takes the form of the three witches.in Lord of the Flies it is anger, hunger and jealousy. Another form of evil in LOF is the beast that they think is lurking just out of sight at all times. Lady Macbeth is a source of evil in Macbeth when she tells Macbeth to hide his intentions.
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